Sarah Lisiecki

Michael Todoran
Hello, my name is Michael Todoran and I am today's host of the Landscape Architecture podcast. And today's guest is Sarah Lasky. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah Lisiecki
All right, Michael, thanks for having me.

Michael Todoran
Of course. So Sarah combines a passion for play the outdoors and movement with more than ten years in a play industry and hundreds of presentations given on topics from inclusive design, musical play and trends in play at Parks and Recreation, recreation conferences, district meetings, landscape architecture firms and representative trains. She studied communications and political science at university of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, and is a certified playground Safety inspector.

Michael Todoran
CPSC As an avid advocate for play as a critical part of the development, she serves on the steering committee of the U.S. Play Coalition on the Parks and Recreation. Editorial Advisory Board and part of the IP and a marketing committee. She is a member of multiple play research project teams, the Project Development Council, and presents at a variety of conferences, luncheon, learn panels and events.

Michael Todoran
She spends her spare time hiking, running, biking and climbing with her rescue dogs. That's a pretty impressive bio.

Sarah Lisiecki
Well, with you, I think the best part is the rescue dogs, right?

Michael Todoran
Yes, for sure. For sure. I know when we were doing our preliminary meeting that we had the dogs in the background and I was like, that's really cool.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yes. Yes. My my babies.

Michael Todoran
I was kind of hoping they would make an appearance today, but I guess not.

Sarah Lisiecki
Oh, today they're they're in daycare so they can have some fun time with other dogs.

Michael Todoran
Awesome. So our podcast is going to be a four part series. And this is the first part of that first first part of that four part series. And today we're going to be talking about trends and play. And then we kind of broke down the podcast into inclusive design, adventure challenges and all outdoor fitness, technology integration and natural elements.

Michael Todoran
So I was hoping that you could start out by talking to us about inclusion of design.

Sarah Lisiecki
Absolutely. I think inclusive design is one of the most important ones, if not the most important, and because it somewhat encompasses the other pieces. So people want to serve their community as we all are in this because we love what we do and we want to serve the communities that we're there to serve. So we want to create spaces and places that really provide an area for everyone in the community to find the best of themselves through play and recreation.

Sarah Lisiecki
So meeting ADA standards, of course, it's really important as well as necessary when designing a play space. But to really have an environment that's truly inclusive, we need more than just ADA standards. So this is where Universal play design enters the picture. Universal play design was developed to ensure that products and spaces can really be used comfortably by all people, regardless of their ability, their preference.

Sarah Lisiecki
And universal design goes really above and beyond that access and promotes their creation of equitable play environments or any environment, really. And then by applying these principles to play spaces. So universal design is really for everything, right? It could be public restrooms, it could be a community center. But we take these, of course, because we're talking about trends in play design, and we apply them to play spaces and public spaces.

Sarah Lisiecki
And we want to talk about barriers that really highlight everyone's diverse needs and abilities. So there are seven principles, and this has become this isn't a trend that's new. These were developed in 1997, but it's just something that continues to evolve within the industry. There are the seven principles. One is equitable use, and really that's asking yourself, is your design going to be useful to a wide range of people, including those with differing abilities?

Sarah Lisiecki
And then some examples of ways that you can get there are providing the same means of use for all users whenever possible, and if it's not possible, creating an equal experience or creating that equitable experience. And of course, equitable use includes avoiding segregating any users. Nobody wants to be segregated. We want everyone to really be within that space together.

Michael Todoran
And what are some strategies to ensure that that happens?

Sarah Lisiecki
So what you can do is really work with a designer who either a landscape architect or a playground designer who really has experience in this. But I mean, ways to do that would be having pathways having surfacing that's flush with the perimeter so kids can create their own place, play paths through space so adults or caregivers who may have a differing ability can also get into the space to engage with their children for intergenerational play as well as supervise.

Sarah Lisiecki
Of course, the children. So I think my favorite way is really having these pathways through the space that allows everyone to create their own movement through.

Michael Todoran
It seems like the easiest adjustment to playground design to allow for more equitable spaces is just making it flush and allowing for all abilities to just be able to access it. Like that's the first part, right?

Sarah Lisiecki
It is. I mean, access is obviously to get any other benefits, you have to be able to get in it. But also taking above and beyond getting in and then really creating these rich experiences that are equitable for everyone. When you're in the space.

Michael Todoran
Yeah, I know. I know that in my son, when he's in playgrounds, always asking me to join him in place. I really like that The the I forgot what term he used, but.

Sarah Lisiecki
Oh, the intergenerational.

Michael Todoran
Inter-Generational, right. Yeah. Like that's to me is pretty important.

Sarah Lisiecki
There's so many benefits to that to really like a language benefit for children and problem solving skills as well as for the adults. It kind of takes us out of our off of our devices, out of our minds or away from our to do list and really lets us play again, which we know play is important that all ages and stages of life.

Sarah Lisiecki
Hmm.

Michael Todoran
Yeah. Do you notice that like playgrounds are having to compete with devices?

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. One of the trends that we're seeing that we'll talk more about later is kind of that adventure and all inclusive spaces. And that is supposed to and definitely does research tells us it does help us compete compete with screens, which is probably the number one competitor to getting kids and families outdoors.

Michael Todoran
Yeah, I would say probably across all outdoor disciplines.

Sarah Lisiecki
That is true. Definitely.

Michael Todoran
Okay. So you said that there was, I believe, seven principles.

Sarah Lisiecki
That there are six left flexibility in use. So really having a flexible design that accommodates a wide range of individual preferences. One way to look at that is providing choice. So some kids really love risk. Like age appropriate risk that you could find within a play space. And then others desire a different type of place. So providing that choice for children to be able to choose their play experience is creates a flexible environment on way to do that.

Sarah Lisiecki
Since I know you might ask me, is having climbers and having different levels of climbing abilities that are near each other so kids can kind of learn from each other, they can watch other children, but really be comfortable where they are and kind of have a way to step in to potentially the next level of climbing.

Michael Todoran
And parents have their own risk levels for their kids as well, so that the kids might be more risky than than the parents. And so the parents could kind of help throttle them a little bit if if if their comfort level is beyond that. Right.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. And I think outdoor play, one of the benefits of it is just giving kids more space for them to be able to decide what's appropriate in an area that is, of course, designed to meet ASTM 1487, which is the playground standard in an area that's designed for the children an age appropriate ability. Right? So we have 6 to 24 months ages 2 to 5 and then 5 to 12 and 13 plus.

Sarah Lisiecki
So as long as kids are playing within the area that's designed for their age group, most playgrounds, I never want to say, oh, but any playground that you would get from a reputable manufacturer would be designed to the standard to meet for those children the safety standards.

Michael Todoran
And I would imagine that the playgrounds are designed in a way that with the skill level goes from low to high in a like a natural progression rate. So it doesn't go low, heart low. Right. Like, so they could work their way up within that their own like ecosystem home of the playground. Is that.

Sarah Lisiecki
Correct? Definitely. So if you I mean, obviously the difference between a six year old and an 11 year old is going to be, you know, pretty different. Their skill level, their comfort level. So having something that allows for that natural progression is a very important part of play design.

Michael Todoran
Mm hmm. Okay.

Sarah Lisiecki
And the next one, the third one is a simple and intuitive use. So we really want the design to be easy to understand, regardless of the user's experience, their language skills, or even their current concentration level. So again, if a space is designed for everyone, some of those things are going to be different. And we want to make sure we encompass as many as possible.

Sarah Lisiecki
So we do that by keeping things simple. You want to eliminate any unnecessary complexity to words, to signage, etc. and then accommodating a wide range of literacy and language skills. So we can't assume that everyone speaks the same language or can even, you know, is even able to read the signs and comprehend them. So if we can use pictures, colors, other ways to communicate information, that's a great way to accommodate that wide range of skills and abilities.

Michael Todoran
So when you talk about intuitive design, is there like case studies that have like best practices and is there like situations where you would do like market research, like have kids play and just kind of like note down what what their responses are and what they like, what they don't like?

Sarah Lisiecki
Certainly there are there are studies out there and I mean, as a company ourselves at we do use we do do focus groups and things, That's another focus for products are able to be used and we can see how kids where they might put their hands, how they might use it and design appropriately for those uses for children.

Sarah Lisiecki
So definitely from our standpoint in product development, we will utilize focus groups and then adjust products accordingly when they're in development to make sure that we're giving them the best opportunity.

Michael Todoran
I'd like to sidetrack this conversation just a little bit, and that is that you in your bio, you are like an inspector, is that correct?

Sarah Lisiecki
A certified playground safety inspector. Okay.

Michael Todoran
So I'm fascinated by that because there's a lot of liability with playground design. Right. And I would imagine then that the certification is probably pretty in-depth. And can you just tell us a little bit about what does that mean to be a certified safety inspector and how does one go about becoming one?

Sarah Lisiecki
Sure. So there are classes you can take. I took mine through the National Park and Recreation Association, and now those are offered oftentimes at state conferences, sometimes at national conferences and the classes a couple of days of fall learning. And then at the end, you take a test. And so basically you can go, I got it. Not because my intention is to ever inspect playgrounds as part of my role, but really it's so that for product development and for conversations like this one, I understand what the standards are and how to meet them.

Sarah Lisiecki
What kinds of things do and don't meet the standards for heights and how much surfacing and things are needed. So really have that base. Understanding for me is why it was important. Some people do that as part of their role or their only role and go through and inspect play spaces, playgrounds to make sure that they meet all of the standards and all of the safety regulations that are associated with those playgrounds.

Michael Todoran
So I would imagine that if there's a product that obviously goes through internal testing and then it goes through extra mental testing and then it's probably like on site, then just inspected that it's installed correctly and everything's fine. But what about when, like let's say a landscape architect wants to design a really custom, you know, piece built, you know, that looks like a frog or something like that, right?

Michael Todoran
Like, who do they work with to ensure that it'll pass inspection? Is there like people they could reach out to and say, Can you help me design this? Or how, how do I avoid the liability there?

Sarah Lisiecki
I would suggest that the manufacturer that they choose for that would have both types of certifications and be able to work with that. I wouldn't suggest working with a manufacturer that didn't have that on site. And then when the playground is installed, usually a third party playground instructor would be the one to handle that.

Michael Todoran
So it's best to just right off the bat once you're designing work with them from the beginning.

Sarah Lisiecki
That would be my suggestion. We don't run into that too often in at work, but we it's definitely something that our customers or the landscape architects or the end users wouldn't run into. And that's something that if you choose the manufacturer carefully and make sure that they have that they have an understanding of standards and that they're willing and able to meet them, it would be the way that I would go about.

Sarah Lisiecki
Okay.

Michael Todoran
Cool. Okay. Sorry for the sidetrack, but I was just considering what that would entail.

Sarah Lisiecki
And it definitely fits in to what especially the product development side of what what I do on a regular basis. Great. Moving on to the fourth principle of design. We're talking about perceptible information. So what this means is that the design communicates necessary information effectively to the user, regardless of ambient conditions or the user's sensory ability. A couple different options for this would be using different modes of communication.

Sarah Lisiecki
So I know I mentioned earlier using pictures and things or written word, but here we could use tactile information as well, or even color information. So there is a play space that I really like at a school out in Massachusetts where they used colors, the color yellow, because that is the most easily seen color by people with sight differences and they shaded the area or lined each play area with yellow in the surfacing.

Sarah Lisiecki
And what that did is that one, it told children and anyone using it that, hey, this is a play area. This is an area that you would go to to engage with in a part of the playground, etc.. But it also provided a safety parameter where people walking, if they can't see somebody swinging, you don't want them to get, for example, hit by a swing if they walk right in front of it.

Sarah Lisiecki
So these yellow, yellow lines in the surfacing that were they're quite wide and thick and very bright in a dark surfacing, allowed the users to be able to see the difference and make sure that they walked around that area. So it's just a different way to communicate information allowing for people sensory differences. We really were trying to create designs, both product and space designs, that minimize hazards and the adverse consequences of unintended actions.

Michael Todoran
Which right. One critique that I've heard about pre manufactured place structures is that there is less room for creativity amongst the children versus like them playing in a forest or something like that. And I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on that.

Sarah Lisiecki
I don't think it has to be a one or the other. Mm hmm. Art scapes and soft scapes can exist and should exist, in my opinion, side by side. And so playing on a playground doesn't take away from playing in a forest. Lots of experiences can be experienced in both ways. So, for example, there are climbers that we've designed to mimic rock climbing, the rock climbing experience.

Sarah Lisiecki
I myself am a climber with my rescue dog. Nice. They don't climb, they just watch. But so being able to create products that mimic these things because not everybody has access to go to a bouldering area and Boulder. Right. Or their parents might not know about it, or their caregivers don't have the ability to get out there.

Michael Todoran
Or you could just do both at one one day or both. Yeah, sure.

Sarah Lisiecki
Exactly. So, I mean, in my preferences, I mean, I would liken it to that I run on the road when it works for me on sidewalks and park scapes, if you will. And I also love trail running. Both are healthy, both have their place and I think it creates this nice balance of, you know, kids being able to engage with other children happens a lot in public spaces and then maybe some of that heavier, deeper into the nature engagement would happen in a forest if they have access.

Sarah Lisiecki
But having both I think is really important. I would never say one negates the need for the other.

Michael Todoran
I agree. I agree.

Sarah Lisiecki
So moving to the last to here, so no physical effort and that might sound counter to play because of course play is in some ways a physical, physical engagement. But we want the design to be able to be used efficiently and comfortably and with minimum fatigue. So we don't want people to be fatigued just getting into the space.

Sarah Lisiecki
If they fatigue, it should be a choice and it should be something that's playful and fun. So a way to avoid this or to negate it a little bit would be to provide multiple means of access with varying degrees of physical difficulty, while always making sure that there's a path or a way of low resistance who need it or prefer it.

Sarah Lisiecki
You know, somebody maybe didn't sleep all the night before and they just want to come in and it's a passive caregiver, maybe sit down and observe their child while their child plays and get the back and forth within the play space. Great. Some days it might be, Hey, I want to play with you, but whatever the preference might be, we want to make sure that we're accommodating for that.

Michael Todoran
And I completely understand this.

Sarah Lisiecki
I bet you.

Michael Todoran
Do, because there's some times where, you know, my son is playing and of course he's dragging me by the arm to interact with him. And I'm like, I'm not climbing through that little hole.

Sarah Lisiecki
Right?

Michael Todoran
I'm going to go up these like, you know, terrorist type steps up into that little zone and then hang out with him. And then other days, I will all go for it. So, yeah, I totally get that. So I guess I appreciate all the designers who have thought of that and apply that to their spaces.

Sarah Lisiecki
Well, I'm glad it works for you. That's a perfect example. The one that you gave just, you know, some of it's just how you're feeling that there's more visibility, not necessarily related to you, but if there's an exciting play element, we want to make sure everybody can get to it. Can everybody or does everyone prefer to get to it in the same way?

Sarah Lisiecki
Probably not. So creating those multiple pathways for everybody to get there with the minimum of fatigue from the act of getting there is kind of the the approach there.

Michael Todoran
Okay, another sidebar. What about maintenance? Like so if there's ropes or rust or let's say that a playground structure is like an ocean park where there's salt in the air, where I guess after it's installed, the maintenance goes under the municipality.

Sarah Lisiecki
Usually whoever would own the space. So whether it's State, Park County, City School, church, community center, however, whomever owns that would be, from my experience, generally responsible for maintenance.

Michael Todoran
And then is it the playground structure that provide the specifications for that maintenance? So like, like suggested, suggested maintenance.

Sarah Lisiecki
Absolutely. So I don't want to speak for everyone, but I know that we then along a maintenance kit, we send along touch up paint graffiti for some things that really will help along, as well as the maintenance schedule and like a full installation guide. So if there is a part that let's say there's some damage to it from somebody who just didn't want that rope right there and they decided to try to remove it, there would be obviously changes, but maybe.

Sarah Lisiecki
Exactly. I mean, exactly. You never know if they'd be able to identify the part and then get a replacement part for that.

Michael Todoran
Okay, that makes sense.

Sarah Lisiecki
But so the final principle of design number seven is that size and space for approach approaching use. So really making sure the appropriate size and space are provided for approach, reach manipulation and use. And then this is regardless of the user's body side posture, mobility. So what needs to accommodate this are hand grips. For example, aren't going to be the same for a 2 to 5 structure as they are for a 5 to 12 play environment, because smaller people have smaller hands.

Sarah Lisiecki
I mean, it's very obvious, but we want kids to get into the space and feel like it's designed for them. And if something fits around your hand, research shows that you're more likely to take those age appropriate risks. You're more likely to play longer within the space and do more because you feel more confident.

Michael Todoran
Right at that. Probably because in line with the intuitive that you mentioned earlier, Right. Like it just feels right and so therefore I'm going to go for it.

Sarah Lisiecki
Exactly. I think a lot of these are really linked, especially as in my mind, as they relate to playgrounds. I mean, I was first introduced to this when I worked at a commercial and residential plumbing company. So we use these a lot in our product design and space design, and now they've applied to playgrounds.

Michael Todoran
Nice.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah. So those are those seven principles. And I think they've they've really driven the market as far as product and space design. Something else that I've seen from an inclusive standpoint that I think is really amazing is a lot of times in society in general we focus on and you know, what can't be done, can't do, but how do we design for people who can't do something?

Sarah Lisiecki
But if we change that conversation and we start focusing on the cans, that's a trend that I'm really liking. I don't know exactly how popular it is, but it's it's the way that I like to think about things. When we approach any opportunity, communities really want to serve their members and provide places for positive growth and development. And this changes the conversation really to allow us to create products that help everyone really find the best of themselves through these play experiences.

Michael Todoran
Can you give me an example of a can?

Sarah Lisiecki
Absolutely. So it's really inspiring because we have there's a product that we have called the Brava Universal Swing, and it was literally developed based on observational research and the cans. So we were at a park observing a child and we saw that she had upper body strength, has upper body strength and can transfer himself. But swings are inherently very transfer friendly.

Sarah Lisiecki
You need help. You need someone to hold the swing for you. And kids really like to have control over their play experience. So we saw this really this need and this child can transfer himself. So what can we give him by focusing on the can? So to develop a solution, a solution, we focused on what this particular child using a mobility device can do and it can transfer independently.

Sarah Lisiecki
So this was an opportunity to create even a loud independent transfer. And once he transferred to the swing, he was able to independently swing himself using his arms and his core and rocking motion as well. So that focus has changed the way we think about products and play spaces and really helps everyone create these spaces that are universal for everyone.

Michael Todoran
Right? And, you know, I guess this is just an observation of mine. It seems like the traditional swing, you know, the one they just sit on and go is just timeless and classic.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely.

Michael Todoran
Right. Like I still gone.

Sarah Lisiecki
And when I do do this, I mean, there's still everywhere. And that's part of their whole thing about giving so many different experiences at different levels and for different preferences. There is nothing wrong with a traditional, what I would call like a traditional belt swing. There is nothing wrong with having a swing that allows children to transfer and swing with six other kids or five older kids or other kids.

Sarah Lisiecki
There's just so swinging is so universal and so such a part of our childhood that and it's so developmentally healthy that if the more kids that can swing and we provide all these different opportunities, really the better off will be.

Michael Todoran
One thing that I found interesting was that and I don't know if this is true or not, but it seemed to have made sense that like a hammock or a rocking chair helps calm the nervous system. And that's why people are are attracted to them. I know that I really enjoy a rocking chair. Do you in your research, in your studies, do you find that to be true?

Michael Todoran
And if so, like, do you guys implement those into your designs? Because you know that that works?

Sarah Lisiecki
Absolutely. So I'm glad you asked the brother Universal thing that I was just talking about. That is great for transfer for children using mobility devices that have the upper body strength, also children on the SD spectrum and all children but especially children. The ESD spectrum often respond well to rocking or to that leg, low key swinging and sometimes even more intense swinging.

Sarah Lisiecki
Like you said, it calms the nervous system and it creates a rhythmic type of action for them. So the Bravo was also designed not just for children to transfer to, but also for all children to use. And then that added benefit of the rocking motion that comes from using your whole body is great for children. On the SD spectrum, there's room to kick your feet, so some stimming behaviors should be normalized in a swing like this.

Sarah Lisiecki
So there's a lot of opportunities using the same place then for a lot to meet lots of different needs, as well as a child who just likes to swing and hang out with his or her friends.

Michael Todoran
Sure, I'm sure. I'm sure there is no coincidence. On why, you know, there's cradles that rock and.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely, you.

Michael Todoran
Know.

Sarah Lisiecki
Like rocking chairs for parents or a parent child or a caregiver, a child to get kids to sleep. I mean, what's the where do you get your you got your thumb to sleep, rocking, right?

Michael Todoran
Rocking or putting him in the car and driving up and down the freeway to fall asleep? Yeah.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah. They're perfect ways. And if we can mimic those relaxation pieces on the playground, too, that's another great way to really provide a play experience for everybody.

Michael Todoran
That's awesome.

Sarah Lisiecki
So we talk about adventure and challenge.

Michael Todoran
We should always talk about adventure and challenge.

Sarah Lisiecki
That's probably, well, I have so many favorites, but I love I love the idea of adventure Challenge before.

Michael Todoran
So let's recap. Can you name all the seven principles that that we just went over?

Sarah Lisiecki
Absolutely. So principle number one is equitable use. Case number two is flexibility in use. We have simple and intuitive use, perceptible information. Number five is tolerance for error. Six is low physical effort, and the final one is the size and space for approaching use.

Michael Todoran
Awesome. Okay. And now we're on to Adventure challenge and or.

Sarah Lisiecki
I got overzealous because.

Michael Todoran
Work like this is great.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah let's do it. So as you mentioned, I think you teased it a little bit earlier. We were talking about just hard it's hard to compete with screens. Screens offer this constant stimulation for children and for all users while the user sedentary. And it really sets up this pleasure reward sensors in the brain with minimal physical effort. So if we can bring adventure and stimulation to the playspace, that's going to be critical to keeping kids engaged, moving and contributes to the replay value.

Sarah Lisiecki
And replay value to us means kids will keep coming back for more and more play. It's not a one time visit and it's like, okay, we did everything right. We're done. Replay value comes a lot from adventure and that means that kids will want to continue to use these spaces and want to get outside.

Michael Todoran
You know, one observation that I had was that it seems to me that a lot of parents at the playground are on their screens not paying attention to their kids playing. And is that a challenge as well, and is there strategies to help them engage?

Sarah Lisiecki
And definitely, I think I think some adventure things are a nice way to help parents engage because it's something a little bit different, but it's also really nice to have seating, for example, within the playspace, and in order to have seating within the play space, it has to meet standards. So it would have to be 1487. But if you can have seating that can also be used as climbers as other things, you're not it's not space that is not being used for play, but rather it's really incorporating that intergenerational play and engagement.

Sarah Lisiecki
I love it.

Michael Todoran
So you're kind of just embedding them within there with within.

Sarah Lisiecki
Exactly. Instead of the kind of the old way of looking at it is seating goes outside the playspace and that's where parents are. And it's really hard to be engaged if you're on the outside. And there's other ways that I'll talk about a little bit later that I think are trends that are pending or here and advancing that help engage everybody too.

Sarah Lisiecki
But really something simple like moving seating inside the playspace is a great way to really get parents and everybody engaged in in the situation. Okay, So but when we're bringing that adventure to the play space, we can do that with towers creating tall environments where a child can climb to the top. And these also encourage age appropriate risks connecting things like towers with the rope tunnel.

Sarah Lisiecki
That kind of gives you that feeling of being suspended in the air and experience the adventure of crawling over empty space. Those are just really exciting things, exciting feelings that can't be replicated on a screen in a video game, and then having big, tall slides that come down from the towers. They provide an egress that contributes to the adventure, and it's a way to extend the play all the way back down and kind of make this circular the circular play experience for them.

Sarah Lisiecki
It's also fun to have slides that alternate between light and dark because kids don't always know what's coming. So if you're sliding down and it's dark within a tunnel and then it's light again and then get started again alternating, but you do bring adventure to the space.

Michael Todoran
I like it.

Sarah Lisiecki
Something new that I've been really excited about. I've been doing personal research on it because it's something that I like to experience as much as I can. It's off and on IS gets us out of our heads and into the present, which is really hard to do in this life of social media and being on our screens and things and being in the present reduces feelings of self-doubt and negativity, which is so important for people of all ages, but especially those older teen ager type age children for maybe like nine or ten and up.

Sarah Lisiecki
We really want to start building them up mentally and giving them some good coping mechanisms and all is one of them. So the mentality of art is all around us and it's actually a trained behavior and we can start by just spending time outside. So something like climbing to the top of a tall tree or to the top of a tall tower, seeing the vastness of the space we're in right now can provide feelings of interest.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah, Yeah. It's a great it's something that I've been really interested in. I mean, every day we're not going to see the Grand Canyon, so that level of art. But if we can engage in daily all walks, sometimes they're called for adults, You see what's around you, you really focus in on the present moment. It's helped us a lot.

Michael Todoran
It's like the teenager's instinct to climb up the water tower in their local town to like, go up and then self-reflect by looking looking around.

Sarah Lisiecki
Right, Exactly.

Michael Todoran
And provide that to them.

Sarah Lisiecki
Right. We can replicate those natural behaviors and give safe and, you know, opportunity for children and adults to be able to experience that. Can young children, especially that to the 2 to 3 year olds can experience by discovering new things in their environment and falling through a tunnel? So a small child, the two year old can crawl through a tunnel and come out to a new place on the other side.

Sarah Lisiecki
And it's like, that's all for them. So introducing that at a young age and incorporating that into the place, this is really important. The research is really new. It's cutting edge or is not one of those basic six emotions, but research shows that it's really its own thing. So they respond. Our bodies respond so differently to our than they do in any other emotion.

Sarah Lisiecki
So it's a really great way to bring that into the space and kind of goes hand in hand with adventure. But it has huge payoffs. So knowing this, we design this into play spaces, provide opportunities for discovery, climbing views across the space. I think this is an important place we can add in trees or other vegetation to give kids something to wonder about, to create places for them to explore.

Sarah Lisiecki
And we just want to have have a holistic experience that can be life changing for them and foster things that we think can carry into the future.

Michael Todoran
I like that idea of integrating you know, natural plants and trees within a playground area as well like that. That seems like that could definitely invoke a sense of curiosity and just more comfortability within playing those in those spaces.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. And as you mentioned before and we discussed, it's really important to have both and creating some of those natural elements that helps with, I mean, seeing the colors change in the fall. You live in an area where your trees do. That is an awe inspiring experience. I mean, how can you look at a beautiful tree that was green and now it's these hues of red and orange and how can that not be?

Michael Todoran
I suppose one of the things going back to like safety is visibility for the caregivers, right? So like making sure that the towers, you're able to see what's on in there instead of it being like completely enclosed, Right?

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. I mean, we want to create environments where there's sightlines for caregivers to be able to see what the children are doing, but also then having that as an example, like a rope tunnel allows for visibility, but it also allows for that sense of air when you're, you know, suspended over open space and you can see all around you.

Sarah Lisiecki
So it has dual benefit. Yeah. Which I think is important.

Michael Todoran
And I'm assuming that not only do the caregivers, you know, parents, grandparents or, you know, nannies or whoever gives them a sense of comfort. But I would imagine too, as like the kids explore on their own and go beyond their boundaries that they have a sightline then to their caregivers and to be able to observe them and make sure like, okay, I feel safe because I could be seeing.

Sarah Lisiecki
Absolutely. And also the I mean, how many times a day you have you have your son right at the playground. Watch me, right?

Michael Todoran
Sure. Oh, yes. Yeah.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah, absolutely. You want the adventure? I was just at the climbing gym yesterday evening and there were that any child that was there was like my dad or their coach or climbing coach watched me Look at this. Would you do this?

Michael Todoran
So talk a little bit about that. So what? What is that? Is there like a way to define what that is and why kids want to be observed?

Sarah Lisiecki
Oh, if there is and I'm not sure what it's called. Fortunately, this is definitely low key observational research that I do. And I remember from being a child that I wanted my parents to watch me. I think we all seek connection and engagement, and that's one way for children to connect and engage with their caregivers.

Michael Todoran
Yeah, sense of like approval, acknowledging accomplishment.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely resiliency.

Michael Todoran
Yeah. I'm curious if there's an opportunity, just as like, like you say that incorporating moments of all this cutting edge, I'm wondering if there is like an opportunity for a company to look into that phenomenon of like, I don't know, let's look at me, something like that. If that is like a way where if we look at it at that aspect, maybe we could like exaggerate the sightlines or something like that.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. I think one of the like a climber that I really enjoy that was built based on the climbing experience and sort of being suspended is really open. And although that wasn't the primary function of the climber, it definitely allows for that because you have these really open spaces, sort of a suspended feeling to this. It's sort of like a ribbon type of climber with different hand and foot hold and really giving, putting that in the space combined with seating that's in the space, you're fostering those types of opportunities and allowing for that because it's such a nice open space, it has some challenge to it.

Sarah Lisiecki
There's a lot of sense of accomplishment when children will cross that, and those are usually the times that they want to share with their caregiver or like you said, a parent or grandparent, a teacher or playground supervisor.

Michael Todoran
Peers.

Sarah Lisiecki
Or peers. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Michael Todoran
Okay. I keep say boring, but I'm just going.

Sarah Lisiecki
To agree.

Michael Todoran
All this. So I also see, you know, just by my own personal observation that kids will self-organize and create games within their play spaces. I'm like, okay, this is what we're going to do. And then they have to like, you know, the classic one would be tag. And but there's other ones where it's like, follow the leader and all kinds of different things.

Michael Todoran
Do you guys take that into consideration in design or is that just like a byproduct of kids just being kids?

Sarah Lisiecki
I think it's both. So because it's a byproduct of kids being kids, we do take that into consideration with design, you know, creating these pathways within the play structure that would accommodate, I think, a famous gamer game. Lots of kids play. Timelessly is out. Love it because I play this child and I still see it when we go and do observation and plays playgrounds.

Sarah Lisiecki
I hear it all the time and Netflix along.

Michael Todoran
With the whole. Did you see the Netflix series called Hot Lava?

Sarah Lisiecki
I haven't, but it probably is exactly that, right?

Michael Todoran
It's like basically they have like adults jumping around and not falling into like it's like a red tide water and then like they fall. They just kind of like, disappear like a scuba diver comes and grabs you just, oh, my gosh.

Sarah Lisiecki
So the hearing is a classic, right? So I think having played functionally linking different structures together or some, you know, freestanding pieces into when you play functionally, like some link, something in design, you're creating the opportunity for that type of game playing. And kids, I mean, that's a great way to demonstrate leadership, to learn collaboration and social skills and communication.

Sarah Lisiecki
So it's extremely important as part of the holistic, our overall play experience.

Michael Todoran
Is there any playground techniques that designers thought were interesting but just kind of feel like the kids just realize like we don't they're not that successful, like any kind of things that you could or aware of.

Sarah Lisiecki
Any personal experience with something that completely, you know, didn't do what we thought it would do. When some technology integration, we really fine tuned that to make it, you know, more fun and more than one child's be able to play it because we saw how much kids like to engage with each other during gameplay, but nothing that just completely didn't work and that, you know, we had to scrap the idea.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely just some. I think that one of the best things you can do for yourself as anything, any sort of, you know, product design or space design or really any part of our lives is continuous reevaluation of, you know, hey, is this doing what we want it to do? Are my actions doing providing the outcomes we want? And so maybe.

Michael Todoran
More, maybe not even just the outcomes that we want. Maybe a different outcome, but just as successful, like, wow, I didn't realize that they would interpret this in this fashion. I mean, also be a success as long as it's safe, right?

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. Right. As long as it meets. I mean, certainly we had that happen with So there is some research that we did with the university of Nebraska, Omaha, on early childhood research. And one of the so the researchers gave the children cameras and asked them to take pictures of the things they found interesting. And of course, as adults, like, oh, I really don't know what they would take pictures of it.

Sarah Lisiecki
I didn't really have any sort of outcome in mind, and I don't think any of us did. And when we got the pictures back, kids were taking pictures of each other of themselves. So that was interesting. It's like, oh, they know something is when they're really little and also of interesting shapes. So the ducks often have small patterns in them.

Sarah Lisiecki
Right? Exactly. And kids were taking pictures of those patterns and just really interesting pieces. So in order to create an environment that they told us they wanted by what they were interested in, we took a lot of those shapes and incorporate them into the different lines. It called synergy imagination. For me, it's that 2 to 5 line and really incorporated those shapes into it.

Sarah Lisiecki
What mirrors, bubble mirrors and different meters in there, because clearly they're interested in the way that they look in facial expressions in their friends. So lots of different ways that we took that and created these pieces that really were research based design so that they could.

Michael Todoran
Get so fascinating.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah, it was really fascinating for us too, because I didn't realize how much they would be intrigued by the different shapes and the different things and, you know, really incorporating that into the design, the natural shapes and things into the design makes it obviously it's approachable them because that's what they were looking at.

Michael Todoran
Whenever I give my son a camera, he has a great knack to take a picture of my double chin.

Sarah Lisiecki
Oh, isn't that nice? Thank you. So quarter he's.

Michael Todoran
I post this one and I'm like, No, why.

Sarah Lisiecki
Don't you? How old is your son?

Michael Todoran
Well, this is a little bit earlier now. He's 11. So he's he's a little bit more conscious about that. But it was just so funny what he found interesting versus what what I thought he would find interesting.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely.

Michael Todoran
But I love the idea that they would be interested in textures and patterns and themselves and their friends versus I would say probably adults are more interested in like the overall picture of the playground or the playground in the sunset or something more like stage where it looks. They tend given from what you're saying, it seems like what they see is more of like a fine artist type observation of something that's I guess focused and something like that.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah, pictures of inside of the slides, you know, things that you didn't I didn't really consider, but it's like, oh, they like that where they were taking pictures of the way the slide and there's a little cube, you know, like the way that it looks when they go into it or the tunnel that I mentioned earlier for they would take maybe a picture of the tunnel, like from the outside going into what's on the other side.

Sarah Lisiecki
You know, really things that we were able to incorporate into the design of these this whole product line.

Michael Todoran
This brings me back to my art school days where like some of the most interesting art that I saw was those types of observations. And I'm wondering if like art that addresses that is really just bringing you back to how you saw things as a child.

Sarah Lisiecki
That could be, I think, a lot of things that we find comforting. I probably think that brought it back. Yeah, We felt as children.

Michael Todoran
Which is which is which is perfectly in line to, you know, having a conversation about playground structures. Right. And I love that you guys are looking at that and then incorporating that into the design, because if you're aware of that, then maybe we're paying a little bit more attention to those textures, Maybe we're paying a little bit more attention to what that experience inside of a slide looks like.

Michael Todoran
Maybe like I think you were mentioning earlier, like, like, like windows on the top of the slides that allow for light to turn on and off as you're going down it or yeah.

Sarah Lisiecki
Even just like a tube, having a tube and then not having a20, that light dark experience. So it's, it's something that creates that just added adventure. And you're right, my kids noticed things that maybe we don't know that they do. And that's why that's why research is so important. And research based design provides the outcomes that kids are seeking in their spaces, in their play experiences.

Michael Todoran
I think there is like a massive uptick in outdoor spaces from COVID and you guys see like a big uptick in playground orders and people just starting to take a whole new appreciation to outdoor spaces because of that.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. So one of the greatest migrations that took place has taken place in our history has been the migration indoors, with people going inside and spending more time inside than ever before. COVID and 2020. And the aftermath of that has really brought people back outside and things that maybe have had been done indoors, have come back outside. And outdoor fitness is definitely something that we've seen moving outside, back outside.

Sarah Lisiecki
And there's a variety of reasons for that. I mean, certainly there's an increased focus on obesity rates for people of all ages from children through adults. The trajectory is not going the way that we wanted to. So kind of trying to combat that in in ways that are healthy and fun, that's one way to do it.

Michael Todoran
And this is this is this is this goes beyond playground structures. And now we're talking a little bit more about like outdoor gym.

Sarah Lisiecki
Definitely. But are gyms that really other fitness areas that really are for the whole family. So they would be for 5 to 12 year olds and 13 plus. So anybody from five and older can play and exercise in the same space. I think that creates some definite equity because right gyms are not inexpensive and, although I love them, not everybody can get to one.

Sarah Lisiecki
There's child care needs potentially. So having spaces where everybody can be outside and people want to be outdoors and it's good for people to be outside kind of has both of those aspects built into it. There's another aspect that I think about a lot is that there's that traditional playground age and then there's like you start to maybe lose kids.

Sarah Lisiecki
You know, things are designed for 5 to 12 year olds, so maybe like 12, 13, 14, 15, those teenage years, I call them the two years. So those are ages that maybe we're losing children and they probably need it the most for mental health, physical health, etc.. So we're really trying to get these kids also interested in something besides making Tik Tok videos or if TikTok is even still a thing.

Sarah Lisiecki
I don't know. I'm I'm clearly well above the age of somebody who's cool, but we're really trying to get those kids outside moving with competition with a little more excitement and some adventure as well in that. So moving fitness outside is something that is good for everyone, right? And it helps kids when they're exercising with their parents or other people in the community.

Sarah Lisiecki
It increases their physical literacy and provides that place for community gathering. Physical literacy, because you were probably going to ask me is really important because it's something that you develop and you keep for life. It's the motivation, the confidence, the physical competence, knowledge and understanding to value and take responsibility for engagement in physical activities for life. So we're trying to build not somebody who doesn't like to move, and they do it because they have to, because you have to run a mile in gym.

Sarah Lisiecki
We're trying to build people who find what they love and can use it to stay physically and mentally healthy for life. Right. And that's important.

Michael Todoran
I'm curious if, you know, landscape architects are oftentimes we're asked to create instagrammable moments within our sites right there. And even though, like I'm not fond of that particular phrase, we all can understand it, right? Okay. Like this view shared is an instagrammable moment, something that we could take pictures of and we want to share. Right? It's a particular view shared or it's a particular background or it's just so inspiring.

Michael Todoran
And I'm curious if that type of thinking about designing a space could lend itself well towards that. The Inkster years.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah, definitely. I think I mean there's really been a trend toward obstacle course fitness in general. So Ninja Warrior is on primetime television and people watch it religiously. Things like the Tough Mudder or Warrior races or any sort of obstacle course racing. Their numbers have been increasing year over year. So because it's popular and it kind of attracts a multitude of populations and that in and of itself lends to instagrammable moments.

Sarah Lisiecki
It is not just going for a run, it's like you're doing something really healthy for yourself, but it's also a little bit more interesting. You know, you're scaling something high, you're climbing something, you're going across the monkey bars and there's so many different ways to do it. So every planning event, your every exercise event has three different levels.

Sarah Lisiecki
So no matter what your level, you're able to approach it and then you can improve yourself as well. And I think those are also instagrammable things, right?

Michael Todoran
And probably that I like that diverse city in the challenges and like the proximity to the challenges within each other allow for that release of dopamine very quickly. Like, like first I climbed this and then immediately I met with this challenge and then I met this challenge. And then you're given like a sense of accomplishment and you're able to move forward in that way.

Sarah Lisiecki
So and then adult for adults and children, you can create your own experience. So if you decide you're going through the obstacle course and before each event you're doing five burpees or you're doing push ups or you're doing squads, you can really customize it. So there's some creativity involved in that. There's ways to use it at all different levels, but there's also ways that if you are new to physical activity, so a fitness beginner, you can use it in that space too, and it's going to be comfortable and approachable.

Sarah Lisiecki
Somebody is not right next to you on the treadmill scoping out everything you're doing.

Michael Todoran
Right, right. Sometimes, like it seems with design, that the simplest the simplest design tends to be the best and the most popular. Do you find that that strategy plays itself well in playground structures as well?

Sarah Lisiecki
I think the simple design that comes from research and really fosters these, you know, play outcomes that kids are looking for. Yes. I don't think we need to make things more complex. In fact, that's one of the universal design principles, right, is keep things simpler and especially with different populations, different literacy, different languages, keeping some things basic often allows for children to be creative, but also to understand how to utilize spaces and how to utilize something in a way that might be different but also exciting and healthy okay.

Michael Todoran
I think I took us really far off the path of the adventure challenge at all, and I think that's okay.

Sarah Lisiecki
We move to Outdoor fitness actually, so I already went through that and we're good to go on that trend.

Michael Todoran
And I think we're now primed for and we mentioned a little bit of this technology integration and natural elements.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yes. So both like you said, we've talked about it a little bit, but technology integration, I mean, I am a an advocate for outdoor play and not using your technology outside, but I think they can go together in some really exciting ways, especially if it's proper. We design our technology outside, can enhance outdoor play and movement. The benefit of doing that is kids are accustomed to technology and it's integrated so holistically in their lives.

Michael Todoran
And each.

Sarah Lisiecki
Day in their lives.

Michael Todoran
And each year it increases.

Sarah Lisiecki
Exactly. So if we can get them outside and it kind of meets them where they are right, it shows them like it's like a giant video game, but it doesn't have you know, you're not just working out your thumbs, you're working out your whole body. So there's something that I really enjoy is it's called movement electronic play, and it brings this like video game vibe to the outside, but it also creates challenge and movement and allows for intergenerational engagement.

Sarah Lisiecki
Kids, parents, teachers, random adults, like everybody really likes it, and it allows them to compete against yourself, against others, and really takes that challenge to the next level. And it's important to have areas where kids and families can interact with each other to reap the benefits of Internet intergenerational engagement.

Michael Todoran
Yeah. I'm curious if there's like, like if, let's say you have some particular children that are, you know, like very adamant about using technology in their play and that is what's going to bring them to the playground. And perhaps then once they're there within that space, because they're going to be in proximity to play structures that don't have it, they're going to venture off.

Michael Todoran
And then the kids that they're surrounded with are automatically going to those spaces and maybe it's a gateway to bring them out of that is that.

Sarah Lisiecki
I was going to use the same word, a gateway to the outdoors, but it's also fully people powered. So you're not plugging anything in, you're not putting batteries in something. You're winding up a, you know, a little circular piece that looks like you're in control of your experience. The lights go on, you push buttons to get it to work, and then you're pushing buttons the whole time that you're playing.

Sarah Lisiecki
So it has like roots in video games, but it takes it to the next level and like you said, provides that gateway into the outdoors, into outdoor play.

Michael Todoran
Awesome. Awesome.

Sarah Lisiecki
Yeah. So I really, as I said, you know, technology for me outside, it's like sometimes it should be a technology break but integrated properly. I think it can enhance and like you said, ways for kids who might not be that interested in being out of a way to kind of get them outdoors. Yeah, it's interesting.

Michael Todoran
Yeah, it's interesting because. You and I, we could have our beliefs on what play areas should be, but if you are denying the realities of what's going on, then you're kind of doing the spaces a disservice as well. And so there's a, there's a fine line between what you want to encourage and what you're realizing is actually happening.

Michael Todoran
And then as a designer, trying to incorporate different things in different ways and being creative, right?

Sarah Lisiecki
If you can marry those things up, I think it's the the golden ticket. Yes, absolutely. And speaking of things that go together, we talked a little bit about incorporating natural elements. And I'm still, as I mentioned before, I don't think they exist independently of each other, but rather combining hard and soft scapes create some of that all inspiring play and a gathering space for everyone.

Sarah Lisiecki
Trees provide natural shade. They put patterns on the ground from the sun filtering through leaves. There's an opportunity to learn about plant life and provide environment for pollinators and other creatures that enhance the space. So there's just so much that comes in addition to being esthetically pleasing, there's so much that comes from having these natural elements integrated into the space.

Sarah Lisiecki
And of course we know as outdoor people, and in your case, the outdoor space designer and landscape architect that having plant life, trees, etc. helps with erosion. Storm damages and improves air quality. So it really gives this nice factor for curiosity and learning and environment for natural existing plants, for native species as well as for animals. And it has all these other benefits just for the whole area.

Sarah Lisiecki
So I think incorporating that that into the space is so important for obviously a variety of reasons.

Michael Todoran
I love going down rabbit holes, so really great.

Sarah Lisiecki
I know they're so fun, but I don't like to get wrong at all.

Michael Todoran
Yeah, cool. Is there anything else that you want to add to this conversation?

Sarah Lisiecki
Oh, I just. I really enjoy talking about all of these different pieces because they're trends for a reason. They're trends because people are asking for them, because research shows they're important and new trends emerge like all as research comes out about it. And the more that we can give communities spaces that enhance their lives, we're meeting the needs of everybody and bringing equity, which I believe is why most of us are doing what we're doing.

Sarah Lisiecki
We want beautiful places for people to get outside, to learn, to discover, to grow, and to bring equity to communities.

Michael Todoran
I love this. I'm happy that this is going to be a four part podcast series too, because I think I love pulling on intellectual and I feel like you're pretty game for it. So I'm.

Sarah Lisiecki
Always game to talk about play and outside.

Michael Todoran
Of Yeah, so that's pretty good. All right. Well, Sarah, it was really nice to have this conversation. So Sarah Lisicki with Burke, BCI, correct?

Sarah Lisiecki
Yes. Thanks for having me, Michael. I enjoyed every minute and I look forward to our next one.